Willem Rants
?
Comment by Willem de Thouars on October 14, 2010 at 2:44am
Unfortunate Tony that certificate has no significant meaning anymore. I had given away certifactes like "such",
to many - who undeservingly had never finshed training with me. Who is Steve Gartin? Only a 4 years trained
student, there are others far byond and above him. So anything in regard to Steve Gartin has been void, and for
him never to return again. Steve means totally nothing to me, he is on the run and of his own making.
Somehow you are connected to Steve, so, stay away from me. willem de thouars.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/photo/steve-gartin-certificate?commentId=2043066%3AComment%3A186038&xg_source=activity>
on Friday
Tony McBath commented on Louie G. Yu's blog post 'Protest for injustice "The 'distinguished gentleman' Willem"'
have you seen how many legitimate teachers have left this board since mr willem joined? everyone else must obey the rules but the moderator is an apologist for mr willem. you can look for justice all day, it will not be found here. sad, but true.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/profile/TonyMcBath>
Tony McBath commented on Louie G. Yu's blog post 'Protest for injustice "The 'distinguished gentleman' Willem"'
"I know where you live" And now the threats start. soon will come the monkey with no candy bar, and then the moderator will say we lacked hormat. "You stop commenting on me." You first.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/profile/TonyMcBath>
Tony McBath commented on Louie G. Yu's blog post 'Protest for injustice "The 'distinguished gentleman' Willem"'
No thank you mr w dethouars, I don't have 20 hours to waste to get you "grandmaster certificate". Or was it $20.00? i forget. i would rather spend my time training with someone who doesn't put "grandmaster" on every seminar certificate.
yesterday
Tony McBath commented on Louie G. Yu's blog post 'Protest for injustice "The 'distinguished gentleman' Willem"'
"I know where you live" And now the threats start. soon will come the monkey with no candy bar, and then the moderator will say we lacked hormat. "You stop commenting on me." You first.
on Friday
Tony McBath commented on Louie G. Yu's blog post 'Protest for injustice "The 'distinguished gentleman' Willem"'
have you seen how many legitimate teachers have left this board since mr willem joined? everyone else must obey the rules but the moderator is an apologist for mr willem. you can look for justice all day, it will not be found here. sad, but true.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/profile/TonyMcBath>
once again, you and your guys go unchecked and dont follow the adab. we have tried to. and at have failed on several occasions. but what we write is not even as terrible as you.
whats even more terrible is that when we are talking civilly to your guys and have atleast put out a hand of friendship the tread is closed. isnt that funny. obviously this is quite biased.
and yes, i think it is for 1 of 2 reasons the thread was closed. either the moderator is from vdt or kuntao silat. or vdt and kuntao silat help to pay for the site. lets be real, and objective, willem and victor can spout out all they like and others cannot. please explain that.
both reasons are fine with me. im a realist living in reality. money talks and b******* walks, plus i understand his loyalty if he is one of your guys and you dont want us to actually be friendly with your guys for fear of exposure for whatever reason.
that i understand. but if this forum is designed to bring people together then it is failing at that. and dont call it that.
if this forum is a great marketing tool to generate students for you guys then great. but dont pretend to make it anything less that that.
i have to agree with tony mcbath and i dont even know him. i dont know what he practices or anything else, but then he is attacked for giving his opinion.
so where is the justice? we can all talk s***, but in the end the brothers will be feuding no matter what since willem and victor have chosen to ignore their true heritage a lineage. where is the adat and hormat in that.
why deny what you know, is it to make sure no one else learns the truth?
i would respect both of you more if you said the truth. victor only learned 18 jurus and nothing else, willem trained serak from whomever. but thats not the case.
why willem then would you ask pendekar paul for his ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF OF YOU BEING A MASTER IN KUNTAO?
THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE WITH COMMON SENSE.
i have talked to guys you train in detail, there have been so many now. i mean lots and not on this forum. they email me privately. and one thing is clear, they want to know more and respect your teachings as well as victors. i respect them very much for making it very clear they dont want our "cool aid" they like yours. LOL>
but atleast they are saying that and being truthful.
You never deny any of the things me or any of my other brothers or friends have stated. in this case omission is acknowledgment. and for that i commend you willem.
what has happened is that i have many new bothers and friends from you and victor as well a more family members in holland now and for that i am grateful.
they are all interested in what we have to offer and show. its funny, i dont want take students from you and victor. not my intention at all. they love training with you. its your fear of exposure that makes you look like your not in a position of power.
the more you rant and rave the more our point is made.
and yes when you said come, then retracted that offer and said how dare i challenge you, i dropped it. in case you dont remember.
as your students defend you and your brother so will we defend ours. i like that, atleast some of them have balls. im meeting up with some of your students here in los angeles. and we are going to train and hang.
we have the understanding that we are not changing sides just trying to learn.
and once again, it comes down to honor and respect, if you do the right thing now so will we. its that simple. through the mess and b******* and s*** slinging we did here on the forum i made some really great contacts and friends.
i have posted on other blogs and such where you and victor have posted, didnt say anything derogatory at all, and was deleted. how sad is that.
as your students have said, they have their truth and we have ours. you and victor know the truth, just need to admit it in private, not asking for public.
if you do the right thing then to save face we would not announce it. just between the brothers.
i like yours and victors students, some i didnt in the past i like now. we dont see eye to eye but dont ever expect to.
remember your the ones who started it for whatever self serving purpose.
and thats fine.
louie
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/profiles/blogs/protest-for-injustice-the?xg_source=activity>
Quit using my name or come out fighting? What is it you going to be doing?
Willem de Thouars.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/profiles/blogs/protest-for-injustice-the?xg_source=activity>
You start, you know where I live, great - come dawn dude. Right of Epinger, I look forward you coming. So are my
other students and somehow you are with Steve Gartin. You Tony, lack ADAT and Hormat and you kept on whining. So what is the point of keep on talking. I am a monkey and will play monkey with you in my backroom.
You going to like my monkey fist, and lets get it overwith, dude, what is your problem?????
You are a big JOKE here on silat tv. Willem de thouars.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/profiles/blogs/protest-for-injustice-the?xg_source=activity>
"I know where you live"
And now the threats start. soon will come the monkey with no candy bar, and then the moderator will say we lacked hormat.
"You stop commenting on me."
You first.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/profiles/blogs/protest-for-injustice-the?xg_source=activity&id=2043066%3ABlogPost%3A186072&page=2#comments>
Are you starting the nonsense up again Tony? We need to forget, and Dr G Yu, you the one who started to threaten and challenge me. You promised to come dawn to do some fighting, and you never did. I know where you live in Canoga Park, have a friend there. Dr Yu to resolute, my school address is 7269 Lowell blvd, Westminster, Co 80229. You will find a match, we had been talking to long. Bukti Negara is a good style, my own style is a good style and many other styles are grand and excellent. What is your point, we need to drop the subject for once, or start all over again. No matter of what I will have no change of heart when it comes to Paul and Maurice, the scars is still to deep between us brothers, and does not concern you or anyone else. I am too a Doctor in Oriental Medicine and philosophy and taught martial arts here in the United States for over 40 years. I also heal people, and you are not the only one. We need once and for all drop the subject, call it INJUSTICE. I was willing to refrain myself from commenting, but if you keep on going, is less of my concern
and we start all over again. If you are in Texas Tony, unless you are Mr Walter van der Woude?
You too please come dawn. You stop commenting on me. Not taken it for granted, I have my mistakes and so is my younger brother Victor, but is not all our faults. You have challenged me Dr YU, and you did.
I have feared no one and will never fear anyone. In the past people came to fight me in my own school, and left
with a different point of view. I am in my mid 70's and still train every morning and every day.
You have no good experience Tony, you too need to grow up a little - let go and let go or otherwise go to my resolution. Lets stop this nonsense, quit your whining, you too had started this. I am willing to drop the subject in concern of myself and in defense of myself. You keep going and I will also be a Jolley on the spot.
I do not speak for Victor, my younger brother, but myself instead, bapak Willem de Thouars.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/profiles/blogs/protest-for-injustice-the?xg_source=activity&id=2043066%3ABlogPost%3A186072&page=2#comments>
You start, you know where I live, great - come dawn dude. Right of Epinger, I look forward you coming. So are my other students and somehow you are with Steve Gartin. You Tony, lack ADAT and Hormat and you kept on whining. So what is the point of ke…
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/profile/WillemdeThouars>
THIS IS GOING TO BE MY LAST COMMENTARY HERE FOR SILAT TV.
As a older or younger man in his mid 70's, I needed to clear my mind objecively, and really express my feelings with an sincere heart. And in a sense also be very open minded about a lots of things, and see in what I need to do, by evaluating my own situation and my relationship, with friends, enemies, family, blood family and my most treasured extended families; men, women and children. To understand in what it means for speaking about enemies is simply also understanding one self and seeing one self, and relate those essences to an explanatory of the relevant facts.
Relating to an enemy means exactly, one who hates or bears ill will toward another human being.
In my case there were just a handful of individuals, here on silat tv, I could strongly consider my
enemies; by standards in friendship with most others, I have nothing but friends and understanding
family of folks who had trained with me and who are also close to my heart. Somebody being my enemy for reason of his own; concludes in my opinion, without any boundaries of limitation also in my absolute, disgrace for my ill feelings toward him. Life constitutes to bear a two sided value to reckon with.
My indicative feelings toward my older brothers, Maurice Francoise de Thouars and Paul de
Thouars, will be of a remaining factor for disliking each other until our days of passing, whenever that might be. I just don't like them and in for what they had done to me, and also in fairness to them,
in what I had done to them. No one is perfect in life and on both of our grassfields, as we are standing, the grass on each side of the fence - look always greener.
I thank God on my knees, for the oppurtunity he always had given me, through faith, of ending up, the teacher (guru) as I am today. I expanded to search and wandered through many lands, and
also here throughout the United States of America, and by inspiration, found ways to make my teaching to a value of interest, not a direct gift from god, but through the essence of my hard laboring efforts. The Almighty provide us with a brain to think, to live and to use common sense.
Of all the martial arts I learned over the years, the most important ally must had been always,
a prayer, a good wish, love, caring and sharing and expanding one's own horizon to many shores.
By looking back at my life, I must say I was just a lucky man to endeavor the best of deeds from
my teachers who taught me, and from my many friends who carried me and from students who taught me; to rest, to reside in humbleness and always in the facinity of my soul in spirit, I shall
always remain honest, upright and at the same time, is hard for me to grow older at heart.
When I observe my groups of instructors and practicing disciples, I could only bear a taste of
a flavouring remedy for their good ventures, in the avenue they had taken, was to struggle like I did.
They are doing fine and far above my expectation of followrs who train hard under me;
to enhance my knowledge of years in practice.
When i was asked in what I thought of being a martial artist, I must honestly say, I did it, toyed
with it and became the very best of what had laid within me -my resources of good gestures.
What is the most remarkable thing on earth, is a form of distinguished pride for being a de Thouars.
Despite our major difference of opinion, amongst our brothers.
There is hardly one airport or hardly a place where martial arts is practiced, that someone strange
comes to me and express himself by saying: " Hi, you must be Paul's brother, I have trained with him", or " I wend to participate in some of his seminars". In other instances I was also approached
by someone else, explaining to me, that he had trained under my younger brother Victor.
In an airport in Germany, a total stranger came up to me, laid his hand on my shoulder, and smiles,
told me, he knew me from pictures he saw; explained to me, that he had trained with Maurice in Holland. Even Dolf was mentioned by some others, that can not be denied by anyone.
Many times even myself, people come up to me, and very friendly told me, they had seen me or had
also been in some of my seminars long time ago. Even old acquaintences who had received some of my instructions 20 or 30 years ago, came to the surface to greet me.
No matter what each of us, were, was or still is a contributor of martial practice and had influenced many around the globe. I am the only one who is by far the leading exponent of Hakka kun tao in the de Thouars and the de Vries family. Everyone in our family is all SERAK orientated.
I have now deeply to consider my special group in Scandinavia, Hawaii, Boston, Guadalajara,
Los Angeles and other parts of the world, for my own focus of attention; not to ignore them or
forget about them. I still have to give them still my caring in sharing of remaining energy for training.
Mostly never to be as forgotten people, the two Doctors, Dr Ray Weathers and Dr Mindy Weathers,
we, my wife and I, and together we are part of a family business, the SINGTONG company.
I have been away from my needed duties for a few months, and need to cosider them also most
profound, and strongly with my spiritual and physical support.
WILL ALSO BE STANDING FIRM BEHIND MY YOUNGER BROTHER VICTOR DE THOUARS
AND BE AN ACTIVE SUPPORTER AND ADVISOR TO THE KUN TAW - SERAK - DE THOUARS,
AND AN OVERSEER OVER THE KUN TAO SILAT DE THOUARS ASSOCIATION. I will not
abandon Guru Horacio or the VDT Academy and will work more toward unity of bringing kun tao and serak to a stronger martial foundation - between two practices of greater value together.
In finalizing, despite of all my marttial arts experience, I prefer GOLF over fighting arts. My friends on the golf course, that work in Thorngreek, my most challenging course - are amazing people who know their business. The professionals are awesome and the maintenance crew
bad but friendly "dudes". They give me always teasingly a hardtime, when I swing bad or hit a good ball. Eitherway they give me funny sugestions to use "firy" red balls to be noticed, sothat they
don't need to wash my balls. When I make a good and clean put, they tell me, that they had deliverdly planted the flag there for my convenience. Another golf course I really enjoy playing is the
Riverdale with two large 18 holes courses. I love the Dunes, not easy to figure out, but less challenging than Thorncreek. I have there friends too, and if is up to me, be playing golf everyday.
For my key board enemies from Holland and from here in America, only just a few of them:
" I thank you for your effort in trying to "P" me off with your interference, of trying to portray for
being the spokemen for Dolf and Maurice". "You actually gave me an inspired time to just fight,
a wastingly, but passionate time with the keyboard of a far distance shore and for some of Paul's
students - I had a grand time with you guys. You thought to scare me with your challenges, and
instead made me worse to annoy all of you. Again I fear no one and will never be a humble servant
to any of my enemies. But I will be cunning and play a game of tack.
Talk all you want, since this is my last post, I rather talk "s***" about someone I don't like - than
kill him, by riding my bicycle over his dig. It flattens his urine tube for his dirty bladder water.
Wishing you all the best, in finalizing my attitude's behaviorism with my commentary,
Bapak Willem de Thouars.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/this-is-going-to-be-my-last?xg_source=activity>
Uncle Bill's "Current" List
The Colorado group:
Phillip Sailas, Most Senior practitioner.
Keith Moffett, Senior practitioner.
Marcelo Rainero, Senior practitioner.
Ted Garcia, Senior practitioner.
Stewart Lauper, Senior practitioner.
David Conrad, Practitioner.
Brian Earnest, Practitioner.
Kris L Roberts, Practitioner.
Rex Finfgeld, Practitioner.
Bill Maniotes, Practitioner.
James Capri, Practitioner.
Dr. (MD) Westly Nuffer, Practitioner.
Rene Fancher, Sifu
Colby Bock, Sifu
Bob Austin, Sifu
Charles Cook. Sifu
Oleg Umansky, Sifu
Steve Roland, Guru
Santa Monica, Calif
Mathew Cohen, Senior Practitioner.
Ray Robles, Senior Practitioner.
West Hills. Calif
Michael Hirst, Sifu
San Francisco, Calif
Dr Conrad Bui, Senior Practitioner.
Janet Jee. sifu in Chinese - Indonesian arts.
Cupertino, Calif
Dr. Andre Knutskraichen, Pendekar Pentjak Silat USA
Truckee, Calif
Sam Edwards, Practitioner of arts.
Ukia, Calif
Frank Broadhead, Practioner of arts.
El Sequndo, Cali
Steve Williams, Sifu
Rosswell, Ga
Pete Pukish, Sensei Satori Martial Arts.
Rosswell, Ga
Alexei Ouchiknov, Practitioner Russian martial arts.
Maryville, Tn
Richard Clear, Senior Practitioner Internal Arts.
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Trent Beach. Sifu
Acton, Ma
Don Ethan Miller, Senior Practitioner of Internal arts.
Somerville, Ma
Westly Tasker, Senior Practitioner Japanese, Chinese and Indonesian arts.
Salem, Ma
Michael and May Williams, Guros in South East Asian Martial Arts Center.
Montreal, Canada
Randell Goodwin, senior Practitioner in South East Asian Arts.
Philadelphia, Penn
Bob Cook, Practitioner in South East Asian Arts.
Baltimore, Maryland
Dr. Scott Sobel, Practitioner in Japanese, Chinese and Indonesian Arts.
Westminster, MD
Brad Nicholson, Practitioner in KTS
Initiated to the extended family, Guro Samuel Scot in Bowie, MD
Greenwhich Village, Conn
Sifu George Kelakos
New Heaven, Conn
Sifu Bruce Walker
Chicago, Ill
Joe Judt, Sifu in South East Asian martial arts.
Brooklynn, N.I
Arkadi Didko, Sifu South East Asian Martial Arts.
Martha's Vine Yards, Ma
Billy Wyatt Practitioner of Arts.
Merrit Island. Fl
Chuck Stahman, Senior Practitioner in KTS
Miami, Florida
Steve and Arny Tarrago, Practitioners in south East Asian Martial Arts
Dr Chad Baley, Practitioner in south East Arts.
Palm Harbor, Fl
Jose Moratella, Practitioner of arts.
Plant City, Fl
Rudy "Danny" Rogers, Sifu
Kansas City, Ka
Shelley Millspaugh, Guro
Bella Vista, Ar
Steve Tod, Guro
Bentonville, AR
John Malmo, Guro
Phoenix, AR
Steve Wall, Sifu
Carthage, Mo
Jeff Sprawls, Guro
Guadalajara, Mexico
Mario Rainero, Senior Practitioner in Imua and KTS
Reynosa, Mexico
Off the List - no more in existence.
Mc. Allen Texas
Dr Joel Rodriguez, Sifu
St. Augustine, Tx
Kay Kutz, Sifu internal arts, extended family
Tokyo, Japan
Jason Yamamoto. Sifu
Ocean View, Hawaii
Dr. Bahati Mershant . Pendekar Chinese - Indonesian arts.
Dana Mattos, Sifu
Portland, Oregon
Curtis Goodwin, Sifu
Hamilton, East New Zealand
Shinichi Jonathan Sakanaka-Kaleohano Louis, Sifu
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Marlow, Sifu
Oslo, Norway
Dr. Jimmy Boharfa, Sifu
Dr Armando Soto, Martial Arts Leader Imua Shantung kun tao
Extended Family:
Guro Tom Kier and Guro Ray Dionaldo master instructors of Sayoc Kali and many other arts
Dr. Ray Weathers, Sifu of Internal Arts
Seidjo Glenn Abrescy, Merced California
Sifu Russ Novell, Missouri
VDT Academy- Maha Guru Victor deThouars, Maha Guru Horacio Rodriguez and students, Bellfower California
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/uncle-bills-current-list-of>
______________________
Hello, I was just wondering about guru Steve Gartin, and American Kuntao Silat. I've seen video footage of Steve Gartin, and he appears to be very good at his art. He also is very good with the knife I've seen. I guess my question is, is he still recognized by Mr. Willem DeThaurs? I know alot of polotics seem to follow the DeThaurs family systems. I just read on someones blog that Steve Gartin is missing again, whatever that ment. I know he was selling a video series on Kuntao Silat, and then something happened. Now, according to that blog, all of Gartins students are moving directly under Pak Willem. Is the credentials that Steve Gartin awarded to his students recognized by Pak Willem? Was Pak Willem ok with that video series? I remember not long ago guru Steve Gartin was being investigated by the government, on weapons charges among other things. Its to bad all that is going on, he seems like a damn good martial artist, and equally a good teacher. Thanks.
Scott
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/steve-gartin-american-kuntao>
Thanks for the reply sifu Tarrago. The reason I asked is because I was going to purchase some of those videos. He is selling some very good videos. I was warned it may not be a good idea because alot of people were supposedly not getting the videos they paid for. I was directed to a blog from one of his students, and on it had the information I already mentioned. I wanted to make sure also that Pak Willem was ok with people buying those tapes. Sounded kinda crazy. Its to bad. I was at one of Willems seminars. Thats why I wanted to buy a few tapes. I wanted to make sure if I was to buy one of those tapes, and was lucky enough to recieve it, I would'nt wind up un Pak Willem s*** list. Thanks anyway.
Scott
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/steve-gartin-american-kuntao>
Dear Scot,
No one is on my s*** list, it is pure fact - Steve and Chass are not allowed to sell anymore of my tapes.
Our issues between Steve and Chass and I goes back some years ago. Steve is not entitled to use
my name anymore and is not entitled to use the name of my system anymore. I openly state that Steve after what he has done to me and my family is bunned out of the de Thouars family circle. With all his nice talk - I don't trust this INDINIDUAL!!!! where is he NOW, is he hiding, is he running or is he playing hide and seek? Be in my shoes for having to deal with these two characters - Steve is not my best and he is not
accountable for his own actions. He likes to see a man - and I am a man. You need to understand it was Steve's philosophical talks you were listening to. Behind Steve's smile hides a untrustworthy agenda.
Come now in the open Steve and answer me??????????? Uncle Willem
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/steve-gartin-american-kuntao>
Mr Scot,
Buy any dvd's through Sam Edwards, Don Miller, Pete Pukish, Keith Moffet, Conrad Bui or Pete
Pukish or through me. All my other associates are allowed to sell any of my products. However when it comes to Steve Douglas Gartin and Chass Clements - they are really finished with me and are
bunned out of my circle. In fact I like to see Steve's American Kun Tao Silat be removed from my side!
With much grace, uncle Bill
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/steve-gartin-american-kuntao>
Scott,
I'm probably the guy whose blog you read. I'd second Mr. Tarrago - go talk to Bapak yourself.
I was a direct student of Sigung Gartin's and probably the most senior teacher in his current generation(I.e. not a video student), and as such can attest to his skill and ability. I came to KTS with considerable experience already in arts like Combat Shuai Chiao (and a fighting record) so my opinions were well payed for. I found Sigung Steve to be a superlative martial artist, and lived up to the praise Bapak gave him in regards to knife handling and free-fighting. None-the-less, while I was recognized as 'clearly doing KTSD' by Uncle and my teaching credential were directly accepted by KTSD, I am working very seriously in learning Bapak's specific method. HIs curriculum is much larger and contains a veritable treasure trove of useful skill. Plus, he is just a really interesting person, a piece of time that is long gone. My classmate Derric and his students has also joined me and my students in pursuing studies under Bapak. But not 'everybody' from AKTS is recognized as having the requisite skills or have their certification recognized. That kind of thing is up to Uncle, and I'll be honest, JUST TRAIN and don't worry about 'rank' or certifications - these things can detract from the true experience and benefits of learning KTS.
Video-only students tend to not really know the system, as the videos are just broad strokes, and it is impossible to get the 'feeling' without a teacher.
Sigung Steve is gone, some student of his who I never heard of in all my years of study with him is selling his DVD's now. Uncle does not see a dime from those sales, FYI. So you may want to talk to Uncle. Me, I have NOTHING to do with his business.
Sigung Steve has had a lot of problems, not all his own fault. He is a colorful character with unorthodox beliefs, but he has always been kind, honest and generous with me. However, his issues have caused him to 'leave the building', so I no longer have contact with him. Frankly, I was surprised we got on so well, as our views tend to be polar opposites.
Just a long way of saying, yeah he was a damn good kuntaoer, a great teacher, but he is longer around.
Uncle is. Uncle is the source of this stuff, you just might want to check with him.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/steve-gartin-american-kuntao>
Uncle Bill has the following reply:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A special note added: I had never or ever agreed upon the idea of a far
distance learning program. The far distance learning program was initiated
by Steve Douglas Gartin and Chess Clements; and Steve Douglas Gartin
and his Thunder rock company. Never and ever did I agreed upon to have
involvement with Steve's and chess's intent for making money - at the
expense of my self and my senior disciples: Phillep Sailas, Ted Garcia,
Chuck Stahman, Conrad Bui, Marcello Rainero and others still training
with me. Any tapes, DVD's or any format with any of their images can't
be used for the far distance learning program. I wiil not permit Steve
Douglas Gartin, Chess Clements or the Thunder Rock company any further
usage of my name and others with me!
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/steve-gartin-american-kuntao>
Hello all,
I'm Ted Garcia, I normally don't reply to much or talk to much about myself or my martial arts practice in public, but I thought I would let whoever was interested in on a little info about the American KunTao Silat videos. A quick bit about me. I am 41 and have been practicing martial arts for 33 years and the past 15 have been solely in KunTaoSilat. In 1996 I was honored to be Guru Gartin first Senior Lineage Disciple of American Kun Tao Silat, I began studying with Guru Gartin in 1992 and stopped my training with him in 1999. I began my training with Uncle Bill in 1994 and I am still continuing my studies with him to this day.
If you are punching an American Kun Tao Silat video you are most likely getting me doing the forms and probably some app's. When I was filmed, it was supposed to be for only Uncle Bill to look at and to give me a critique. They were never meant as a training video, only practice. The only true training video I did with Guru Gartin was for Paladin Press called "Secrets of Silat - Knife Fighting Techniques of Silat and KunTao".
I have recently met several people who have said they studied with me via the tapes. I can not say it enough these videos with me on them were only meant for Uncle Bill to look at and to give me corrections, not intended to sell as a training video.
Now Steve did make a series of training videos with Uncles Seniors, i.e.. Randell Goodwin, Phillip Sailas, Keith Moffett, George Morin and others but the editing was very rough and hard to train to. They did not do (sell) very well for him and I believe most people wanted a refund. This is where I come in. Steve though he would make a new series of video's and said to me, in Steve's word's "I can make you a star". I said I don't want to be a "star" and that I didn't care about that. I said to Steve that you (Steve) should be in front of the camera, since at the time he was still in good with Uncle Bill as well as being one of Uncles top seniors. But, instead he filmed me doing forms and some apps. and said they were for Uncle Bill to review me.
In 1999 Steve and I had a falling out, and that was the last that Steve and I had seen each other or spoken to one another. But, a little over a year ago somebody told me I was on youtube doing forms, and then as I mentioned people came up to me and said they had been studying the tapes with me on them.
So what I'm really wanting to say to anyone interested, if you want to learn Kun Tao Silat deThouars don't try to study it from the videos with me (Ted), they are just a random taping(s) of me practicing, that's all, just practicing, and we, Uncle Bills practitioners are still having things tweaked and reworked to this day. What I'm trying to say is, look at the list of teachers that Uncle Bill has listed, seek them out and train with them in person, and if you can by all means try to train with Uncle Bill. If you can't do that, try to make it to the Family Gathering he has every year. He is just Incredible!!! Uncle blows my mind each and every week I'm in class.
My intention is not to bad mouth Steve Gartin my former teacher, for I am truly, truly grateful for all the good times we did share and for the introduction to Ba Pak Willem deThouars I shall always cherish. I just wanted to let anyone interested in the videos with me (Ted Garcia) on them, what they are getting, just another day of training for me, not a training tool for others. This is only in my humble opinion. Thank you for your time and may you train hard and live a long and happy life.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/steve-gartin-american-kuntao>
Dear Scot,
I am the one that can answer your question the best. Steve as a practitioner in my system once, will always be
reconized by me as a great practitioner - no one can take knowledge away. As I have many others, equally
as good as Steve - it is impossible for me to acknowledged Steve as my best practitioner - while there are others,
specificly equally as good as Mr. Gartin. They are in anywhere else. Unfortunate is very hard to put a ranking system
in my art - I train, I teach and I live without the uniform or tittle. In order for me to put an equal measurement for
knowledge between the American kun tao Silat and my group - the American kun tao silat will have to train equally
or the same in hard laboring efforts as individuals still training under me. Come and check my group out, see
them on the floor. Than be honest and evaluate! Gracefully thanking you, Willem de Thouars.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/steve-gartin-american-kuntao>
Reply by Willem de Thouars on April 25, 2009 at 11:55am
I would like to add one more comment to my first one. Steve Gartin will always be one of my very best practitioners,
no matter what stands between us as individuals! We are people, we have likes and dislikes - no matter what,
Steve in whatever he is doing, sofar as the martial arts is concern - remains an excellent practitioner. No one and
including myself can take his knowledge away. He is still one of my best practitioners as some others like him.
Unfortunate Steve and I have parted as associates and until the end of time - he will always be recognized by me.
His group the American kun tao silat will be reecognized by me, of course - as long as they put in equally time
in hard training. Most of them who had gone over to me, are equals to my group in KTS. Steve did an excellent
job of training them - it made easier for me to extent information to the men. As a teacher I have to be fair and honest
and make this clear in my statement. Uncle Bill
Reply by Pat on October 11, 2009 at 1:57am
Hello All,
I realize that no one has posted in this thread for months, but I just came across this site. As someone that has bought a few of Steve Gartin's DVD's, it saddens me to learn of his dishonesty. However, I applaud you, Bapak DeThouars, in still honoring him for his accomplishments in your system. So far, i've only known of you as a great martial artist, but now see you are also fair and just. If only everyone in the world, particularly the martial arts community, could be as level-headed as you.
It will be a great honor to meet you in Chicago next month, and I look forward to absorbing the information on this site until then.
Pat
Reply by Willem de Thouars on October 11, 2009 at 5:49am
Dear Pat,
It took me years and after a long time, to part from Steeve Douglas Gartin and Chess Clements. Together those two individuals had operated as a team and the two together
had threatened my family. They wanted to take my family to court and had me signed,
a cheap and worthless contract for Steeve's taping business.
No student had ever done that to me, but Steeve did and signed the cheap contract that
amounted to nothing - only to evaluate Steeve for his trust worthiness.
Steeve and chess had taken my kind heart for weakness!
Steeve in my opinion had always been a racist and also through my observation and
out of my experience with this individual - he hates jews.
If he hates jews than he also must not like other ethnic groups of people.
He has done many things to other people that was not right.
No one speaks out in fear of Steeve's reprisals.
Everybody else was being blamed by Steeve for the predictament he is in.
He laid his own bed and uses people to benefit his objectives.
Steeve wherever he is, is hiding and is still trying to use my name for his Thunder
Rock company and is still advertrising with the use of my name.
I say this openly and in most sincerety for the years of anger Chess and Steeve
had caused me. They were the bullies on the Yahoo discussion group and had
attacked me in a nice way, when I had disagreements with any of those two
characters. Now it is over, I will comment and come out honest, I don't like
those two men - they were just taking advantages out of situations in which they
felt comfort, only to progress their money making objectives.
They supposed to have scared judges in court rooms and wrote unproductive articles
for their defense and considered them selves SELF APPOINTED LAWYERS.
Unfortunatre for those self appointed lawyers - they lost every case.
If Steeve won many cases or scared any of the judges, why is he now in a predictament
as he is in.? What they never understood about our justice system was, that everything has to be written strictly to the letter of the law. Old State Laws are now in the
absolutes through newer amendments.
Steeve was not always wrong, he had rightful issues with some unjustful actions
law enforcement had taken against him. He wend wrong about it and is on the run.
I don't think that the FBI want him that bad, all they want is Steeve to disappear
and not be to interference with them or law enforcement.
No real bad guy at the present is able to escape, the strong arm of any law enfocement
in the world catch them by daily as recorded on the net.
Steeve was at one time, one of my best practitioners when he was in training.
Still is fluent and efficient and I wish that he better mention his other teachers
as teachers. I want him to forget that I once was his teacher.
Unfortunate I just had to terminate Chess Clements and Steeve Douglas Gartin
out my system and despite the critisism I had to receive from outsiders.
What others think of me, is less of my concern, I only worry what my family at home
think of me.
A reason why I had to permanently terminate some individuals together with Steeve
and Chess for my own issues as their teacher regarding my system.
All I want is Steeve to get off his lazy butt and start working for a change to make
an honest dollar - instead of using my family's name.
This also conclude my issue I had with Steeve Gartin for a long time.
I didn't wanted to sound negative, but when a student bites the hand that had fed
him - than the same hand has to shake him off!.
And I did!
Please stay in peace, bapak Willem de Thouars.
Reply by Pat on October 11, 2009 at 10:14am
WOW,
That's more than a little dishonesty on his part...I almost want to throw the DVD's I bought from him in the trash and burn them now! I never would have guessed him to do all that you mentioned, and this makes him all the more dangerous. I've only talked to him a couple times, but he apparently puts on a very convincing (although spacey and ungrounded) front.
Some people perceive kindness as weakness to take advantage of, and that's probably what those guys were taking aim at. Many have said you are very giving in what you teach and a very noble gentleman. Being that kind of person and still being no one's doormat, in my opinion, speaks volumes of your inner strength.
Steve and Chass did more than bite your hand, they were trying to take the whole arm! Parasites like that must be thrown to the ground, some times repeatedly, and it looks like you did. In retrospect, I apologize if my post has brought up any unpleasant memories that were concluded. Before my post last night, this thread hadn't been posted on since late May, and I am sorry if I re-opened a can of worms I should have left alone.
Once again, I cannot express what an honor it will be to meet you at the seminar in Chicago. I haven't done much seriously in the way of martial arts for a few years now, and haven't done much in the way of Kuntao or Silat ever (although these arts are the ones I'm most interested in now...they are so different from the Korean arts I've done in the past and much more intricate). Having a great teacher like you here will jumpstart a sort of martial arts "rebirth" for me...and the term rebirth is actually accurate as it will be a week after my birthday. Your arrival will be timed perfectly!
Sincerely,
Pat
Reply by Willem de Thouars on October 11, 2009 at 3:10pm
Dear Pat,
I am sorry if I did brought to you some concern, it is just that I wanted to inform you, to purchase some better dvd's or tapes from Joe Judt in chicago or
I can refer you to other more reliable and more honest people to buy
them from.
I am usually not mean and I had given people like Steeve and Chass many
oppurtunities to be a trusted family. But they have attacked my family,
and tried to booster up their insecure business dealings with family
treaths and being just bullies. It was so true, they were trying to take
my whole hand.
Steeve is still letting someone run a webside under my name to propagate
the Malabar or Thunder Rock company.
Most of my Senior practitioners have known about Steeve and Chass.
They have no real cultural respect, although they think they do.
I am glad no longer to have any more dealings with them, I just want
you to be real careful when you deal with individuals like Chass and Steeve.
Of course Steeve will be calling you under ground - he is on the run.
He is dangerous and has great skills.
I don't fear him and I will never ever let him raise his voice to me again.
There are quite some people in the martial arts like chass and Steeve, just becareful for the sweetness of sugar.
I am glad and happy to be meeting you next month and others as well.
We shall have a great time and my philosophy was always:train and train
and train.
It sadened me that there is so much politics of existence in the world of
martial arts - caused by some students. I will try to share the best of me
with the participants at the seminar.
Honor comes from two sides of the fence, I will be delighted to meet you as
well. My small group under Joe Judt in Chicago are awesome practitioners and
they like to train.
Thank you so much for your interest in our system and since it is your
birthday - will give you one of my latest dvd's. Some of my advanced and
three most senior practitioners will be in it, and on Thursday we will be
making new dvd's. Just for your birthday, will give you one!
You will get it on the seminar in Chicago, much grace and best wishes,
bapak Willem de Thouars.
Reply by Pat on October 11, 2009 at 4:02pm
Thank you,
I've seen the list of practicioners that sell DVD's and will go through them or you from this point forward. It is good to know that there is someone in this area that you trust in. I once thought maybe Steve's group might be the way to go (I was fooled, like you said, he uses your name and portrays himself as the gospel of Uncle Bill's Kuntao Silat) and am glad I came across this site for that reason and the wealth of information posted. It is a shame that many martial arts have these same problems of calling each other out and trying to act as if the other has nothing of value. I guess it's the nature when it comes to fighting arts and people with flared egos. Or maybe it's the result of those who are actually scared and trying to cover up their own lack. But to turn around and betray the one who gives you the information is MUCH worse. This is where you are completely different, an honorable man who doesn't needlessly slam others for doing this or that differently. Hopefully I prove to be a good student of these arts and hopefully I can train consistently with Joe Judt & company.
I really appreciate the birthday present! Thank you so much! Thanks also for already pointing me in the right direction!
Pat
P.S. I really like your warning about the "sweetness of sugar" above. We all know sugar tastes good, but creates problems in the long run.
Permalink Reply by Mas Judt on October 11, 2009 at 7:09pm
Hi Pat,
I'd like to add - I am copying old footage of Uncle's - beautiful stuff - HE will have copies for sale at the seminar. I will arrange a system as this material is digitized for Uncle and Auntie to be able to sell these - I may or may not be involved - My primary goal is to preserve their video legacy for them, and whichever pieces they choose to offer will be offered in such a way that they control the process and benefit from it. Perhaps an automated method like LuLu might be used...
I've been at this for a good 6 months now, fitting it in whenever I can around my work. The footage is priceless, starting from old super-8 films to seminars conducted all over by Uncle. Great stuff.
Best,
Joe Judt
The one to post:
Reply by Willem de Thouars on April 25, 2009 at 11:55am
I would like to add one more comment to my first one. Steve Gartin will always be one of my very best practitioners,
no matter what stands between us as individuals! We are people, we have likes and dislikes - no matter what,
Steve in whatever he is doing, sofar as the martial arts is concern - remains an excellent practitioner. No one and
including myself can take his knowledge away. He is still one of my best practitioners as some others like him.
Unfortunate Steve and I have parted as associates and until the end of time - he will always be recognized by me.
His group the American kun tao silat will be reecognized by me, of course - as long as they put in equally time
in hard training. Most of them who had gone over to me, are equals to my group in KTS. Steve did an excellent
job of training them - it made easier for me to extent information to the men. As a teacher I have to be fair and honest
and make this clear in my statement. Uncle Bill
Reply by Willem de Thouars on October 4, 2009 at 7:53pm
Sifu Armando,
Thank you so much for corresponding in a truthful passion with greater understanding. No one could have written
a more clearly explained article as you did. I fully appreciate your input and to a true practitioner of any system,
in particular of the Dutch Indonesian tradition, would have left and and taken my name out.
Again sifu Armando thank you for your very compehensive compesition in wordy description.
Sofar as I am concern the chapter on Luz Pena Cavaroz is closed and we move on to better our selves.
Lastly to evaluate an individual like Luz pena Cavaroz, how do you deal with a man that has no ethnics, no
comprehension, no values, no distinction and no East Indian life's values?
Hard to deal with and especially when the man has a skin of a rhino and a mind set of an elephant.
Someone would have been embarrased in the way I have insulted him in somany ways.
When he loses my name, he automaticly loses something to munch on.
He uses my name to claim and to only use the last name de Thouars as a money making objective.
Similarry like Steve Gartin, chass Clements they are like room mates and have for years munched off my
name.
It is always a free ride to use unrightfully a teacher's name after being dismissed out a teacher's family
circle. Luz loves to hold on to something that can never be his possession.
O, well what is there to be expected of someone with a rhino skin or an elephant's mind that wants to
possess, who is outstandingly greedy and what more - he has nothing to show for in the real kun tao
circles - but only to show up in being dressed up like a general and runs a school that looks like a kempoish
institution with Maria the queen of tai chi. she runs the show!!!!!
Always in delight, bapak Willem de Thouars.
In my book Luz goes down as a CRY BABY that wants his candy bar.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/to-end-an-escalating-conflict>
Reply by Rex on October 7, 2009 at 2:28pm
As Sifu Soto pointed out above, if your master teacher makes a decision you don't question it. You must accept it!
Perhaps if Mr. Pena had accepted and complied with Uncle's wishes in the first place, it is possible that he may still be a part of the de Thouars family. Is it not an honor to be a member of such a martial family in any capacity? For Mr. Pena, why does is have to be an all or nothing proposition? It seems that he may well have still held a key role in the family without having to be Uncle’s sole inheritor had he chose to understand Uncle’s reasoning on the matter, which was explained. Uncle may not choose a sole inheritor, maybe he will. Only Uncle can say what is to be done with the family and it is our place as family members to support his decision.
I saw that Mr. Pena feels that he has not been allowed to respond on our group or whatever he feels he’s being denied. Mr. Pena and Uncle have known each other for years. No doubt Mr. Pena has Uncle’s phone number and home address. I have considered what I might do if I was informed of a significant change or some form of demotion involving me. I would’ve have gone directly to Uncle and either met with him, called him to converse, or at the least wrote him handling the matter privately which Mr. Pena could have done and could still do.
As a loyal student to Uncle, I can only hope Mr. Pena finds a way to make peace of the situation. Unfortunately, this has escalated to a level that it may be past the point of making amends. But I propose that Mr. Pena approach Uncle privately as a humble student to his master teacher to put this matter to rest and perhaps continue to be a part of the family(at Uncle's discretion, of course). If Mr. Pena isn’t willing or inclined to do so, then I politely ask that Mr. Pena relinquish the name de Thouars and move forward with his own family.
Here’s to wishing everyone peace in their lives!
Sincerely,
Rex
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/to-end-an-escalating-conflict>
Your si-gung's teacher is called si-tai-gung, and his teacher is called si-jo. The founder of a system or the head of a generation line is called jo-si.
Jung-si means "teacher of the tradition". This title is usually addressed to the living head of a system. It is also sometimes addressed to a famous master.
Let us take this generation line as an example. Chee Seen --> Lok Ah Choy --> Wong Kai Ying --> Wong Fei Hoong --> Lam Sai Weng --> Lam Jo.
Lam Jo would address Lam Sai Weng as sifu, Wong Fei Hoong as si-gung, Wong Kai Ying as si-tai-gung, and Lok Ah Choy as si-jo. Anyone in this generation line from Wong Fei Hoong downward, including students today, would address Chee Seen, being the head of the generation line, as jo-si. Technically, Lok Ah Choy and Wong Kai Ying could also address Chee Seen as jo-si, but usually they would not because they were close enough to call him si-gung and sifu respectively.
Chee Seen is the jung-si of the system. But Lok Ah Choy, Wong Kai Ying, Wong Fei Hoong and Lam Sai Weng, being famous masters, can rightly be referred to as jung-si too.
Pasted from <http://shaolin.org/answers/ans00b/sep00-3.html>
Reply by Willem de Thouars on June 10, 2009 at 3:50pm
There was never a dark day or moment for the system I taught and still teach to many individuals around the globe,
in South America, Mexico (Guadalajara) and throughout the US. After having dismissed Luz Pena Cavaros and some
11 other individuals for the same reason - things are increasingly start to get better and more workshops for us to come.
All others outside the ex members I had to let go for being annoying to our whole group in being very lazy for the
actual practise of my art. The tapes Luz Pena had send out to members of my group and including Janet Gie, who is
like a daughter to me - was quickly disregarded as a misrepresentation of me with Pena's greater misunderstanding of me.
Does Luz Pena really thinks by his own fantasy of imagining things that Kun Tao Silat de Thouars can't sustain without
him and the Reynosa group - my goodness where is he coming from? I finally have gone to the dentist and Luz and
his group is removed like a dentist pulling an infected tooth. A student talking to a teacher the way he did - should be
left alone in the wonders of Disney World. The way I see it that Luz Pena Cavaroz by respecting me - actually disrespectfully disregarded the Dutch Indonesian customs and tradition and who is he really? He did exactly the same
thing as the 12 other individuals I had taken off my list. Non of those people to include Luz Pena Cavaroz and students should use my name or the name of my system anymore! If they still do than Luz has to be tested in Guadalajara,
he needs to know exactly 40 forms in order to teach my system. So Luze Pena stick to Li Chuan kun tao?
You are a karate practitioner and not an Imua Shantung or de Thouars kun tao silat. You being dressed up in your
uniform justifies only your Lie Chuan system and not a practitioner of Kun tao silat de Thouars. Your puffed up ego
shall always be your downfall and most unfortunite others of my associates are warned about you. In the martial
community I do know a lots of people who are actually my friends! You stepped me in the back as you did the
Imua shantung kun tao - there is a letter you wrote to Armando and Marcello Rainero. So stick to your whatever
you like to call your system - leave my art out and my name!!!! Hai Tang Sifu Willem de Thouars.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/the-truth-about-jose-luz-pena>
Reply by Willem de Thouars on June 10, 2009 at 3:50pm
There was never a dark day or moment for the system I taught and still teach to many individuals around the globe,
in South America, Mexico (Guadalajara) and throughout the US. After having dismissed Luz Pena Cavaros and some
11 other individuals for the same reason - things are increasingly start to get better and more workshops for us to come.
All others outside the ex members I had to let go for being annoying to our whole group in being very lazy for the
actual practise of my art. The tapes Luz Pena had send out to members of my group and including Janet Gie, who is
like a daughter to me - was quickly disregarded as a misrepresentation of me with Pena's greater misunderstanding of me.
Does Luz Pena really thinks by his own fantasy of imagining things that Kun Tao Silat de Thouars can't sustain without
him and the Reynosa group - my goodness where is he coming from? I finally have gone to the dentist and Luz and
his group is removed like a dentist pulling an infected tooth. A student talking to a teacher the way he did - should be
left alone in the wonders of Disney World. The way I see it that Luz Pena Cavaroz by respecting me - actually disrespectfully disregarded the Dutch Indonesian customs and tradition and who is he really? He did exactly the same
thing as the 12 other individuals I had taken off my list. Non of those people to include Luz Pena Cavaroz and students should use my name or the name of my system anymore! If they still do than Luz has to be tested in Guadalajara,
he needs to know exactly 40 forms in order to teach my system. So Luze Pena stick to Li Chuan kun tao?
You are a karate practitioner and not an Imua Shantung or de Thouars kun tao silat. You being dressed up in your
uniform justifies only your Lie Chuan system and not a practitioner of Kun tao silat de Thouars. Your puffed up ego
shall always be your downfall and most unfortunite others of my associates are warned about you. In the martial
community I do know a lots of people who are actually my friends! You stepped me in the back as you did the
Imua shantung kun tao - there is a letter you wrote to Armando and Marcello Rainero. So stick to your whatever
you like to call your system - leave my art out and my name!!!! Hai Tang Sifu Willem de Thouars.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/the-truth-about-jose-luz-pena>
Reply by Willem de Thouars on June 11, 2009 at 4:51am
Thank you Marcelo for exposing Jose Luz Pena to me and I am sorry when he first came to me, only 15 years ago
that I was not paying attention to you and Mario. People keep on forgetting that the Imua Shantung Kun tao was
already affliated with me since 1975 actually. The late sifu Otto van der Groen came to see me, here in Colorado
and stayed for nearly a week. We had a great time together, as you well know Lie Gai Edgar van der Groen, an
olympic swimmer against Johny Weismuller in 1938 in Munich, Germany were also friends. Weismuller got the gold
and Lie Gai received the bronze medal. My uncles who resided at the time in old Batavia, Djakarta now, fought
together with Lie Gai against other players. Edgar van der Groen even up to know is still considered a Senior
in the pentjak silat school he came through years ago. He was always highly respected with the Indonesian adat.
Quite frankly the van der Groens also were neighbours from my mother in law's family. I remebered Edgar van
der Groen, when as a young man was always driving his bicycle from djakarta to Bandung to see his wife, he was
courting at the time. I lived in Bandung only a few blocks from the house were Edgar always was coming to.
Later on in the US I was reintroduced to de van der Groens by Glenn Abresky a kempo practitioner and also one of the
very best stick handlers in his philipinno art. What was so remarkable when it concerns my sytem, Luz Pena and his
group in Reynosa were held my good natured heart for weakness, as they always do in todays world. In Pena's
comments he made, that A MARTIAL ARTS DOES NOT BELONG TO ONE MAN ONLY. That is fine and acceptable
as long as one does that particular martial arts CORRECTLY. I had never had any ambition to really teach my art
in Reynosa for one simple reason - while in Guadalajara encouraged by you and Mario, all the students there were
always there for the training and training and had no use for WALLPAPER and in Reynosa under Luz and Maria
things were toally the opposite. I can ask any green belt or black belt in your school in Guadalajara
to show me any form of kun tao silat de Thouars and they do it exactly as I had showed you and Mario. Luz
had plenty of time to ask me to learn from me my forms, when I was with him in Reynosa - but unfortunate for Luz and
how dumb can anyone be, he was sending the tapes I was promising to him his successorship to some of my
associates who are still training under me and some had gone their own ways. He should have KNOWN that in
the Hakka kun tao tradition, a successorship belongs only to one individual, girl or boy - it goes to a direct lineage
in this case my grandson. It was a testing period for Luz and how he would psychologically handle the position.
Sorry after I already had observed his nature for being who he was and how he IS - I declained and DISCLAIM my
own promise to him. In fact how can anybody not practising my art accordingly like you, Keith, Conrad, Mario, Steward,
Chuck, Steven Terrago, Westly Tasker, Don Miller, Mathew Cowan, Ray Roblos, Jimmy boharfa, Michael Marlow,
above all Phillep Sailas (40 years with me) and I can go on with a greater list of people who are understanding of me
and who are practising and practising without puffed up egoes. Does any one in his right mind would make a choice
between Luz and all you greater practitioners of my art? The answer is HELL NO! Someone who claims my successor has to know all the forms and a lots more than what the Reynosa group was doing. When Janet Jie showed me the tape
Luz was sending one to her, made me furious, for a so claimed student to act like a Jack ASS. We laughed about it and
we knew that he was an other one and like eleven others I had to dismissed from my rouster. They are the takers and
like the takers as they were - I HAVE NO NEED FOR THEM TO BE AROUND ME! They were always nice for expectations to make them selves so good and trying to be better than their teacher. Of course with stream lined uniforms and puffed up egoes they may look convincingly - they keep on forgetting by trying to make me look bad by
my own HARDCORE ASSOCIATES still training with me - that they make an ASS out of them selves! For sure Luz Pena Cavaroz, no art belongs to one man alone - but make sure to know that art you are referring to a lots more as
you were claiming. Make sure you know any art to the significents of existence. With kun tao silat de Thouars you are doing one half ass job and can't compare your self with the people on my list. As the creator of my system, I can do
as I please without asking my wife for advise, her job is being socially, in the kitchen and my total support. I can
revoke, take away rank, disclaim, boot out, and in your case I had threwn you out my extended family circle.
You only wants rank and position and your nature was always to sweep your teachers underneat your carpet.
To bad you was always the half ass student I once knew! Just make sure you don't claim me anymore as your teacher
or use the name of my system. It is not fair to me or to others who only know how to ptactise and train without the puffed
up egoes you always had - a MISTER KNOW IT ALL. I have booted you out for a simple reason -I DON'T NEED A
KNOW IT ALL IN MY PRESENCE. You respect my wishes, for sure only to oblight your self to your self
endulged wishful thinking. In fact you were very disrepectful to my wishes by simply not understanding my culture!
This closes and end the book on Jose Luz Pena Cavaroz, his family and students, Hai Tang Sifu Willem de Thouars.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/the-truth-about-jose-luz-pena>
Reply by Oscar Salgado Sugrañes on August 31, 2009 at 4:59pm
first I want to apologize by my poor English...
It is incredible that in a forum that could be the most serious one of the world, exists a person of as much weight as he is Mr. deThouars, who "dedicates himself" to criticize to people like Mr. Pena and others...
I believe that nobody interests in know who is the best one (if is it) or who knows more or who knows more Kuntao. They could concentrate in sharing knowledge, ideas, techniques in a coordial way in a professional line, leaving to a side the ego!
I am not a Guru or “uncle” like Mr. deThouars, but never will not criticize to anybody like Mr. deThouars had done by many years of experience that he had, this way so cruel.
It is but I suppose that Mr. deThouars will be realizing his error and would leave the "great power" to a side. Otherwise this forum will convert in a magazine of the heart and lose all the value that webmaster of Silat.tv they are cultivating day to day with its good work.
With this I do not want to offend to anybody and in special to “Uncle Bill”, I try to leave the message of who begins in Silat.tv and instead of find a full Web of good sensations related to the Silat, Kuntao and more, finds bad atmosphere and little respect by which they are not "Great Masters".
Please more action, better information and less sarcastic, offensive and disagreeable commentaries to noelse!
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/the-truth-about-jose-luz-pena>
To the point:
Since I have met Mr. DeThouars, there have been many Lineage Holders. I have also seen many SiGungs. Some quite famous I may add. All of them are no longer lineage holders, all of them, no longer SiGungs.
All appointments are part of a process. In this case, the process of Mr. DeThouars shaping his system, as it is his, and only his, to shape.
One can surmise, as the attached text to the video implies, that Mr. DeThouars’ is now weak (vulnerable) and that his word is not his bond (suggesting also that he is not an honorable person but was one in the past) or that in his weakness he was manipulated by a politically motivated dishonorable corrupt and unworthy student of Mr. DeThouar’s family, namely Mr. Rainero, who allegedly dishonestly and for his own gain, interfered with the process.
In Mr. DeThouars not fulfilling his "promise", if one considers those reasons to be other than legitmate, it stands hence as evidence of his lack of honor, resolve or leadership ability.
The consideration of these would also presuppose; a diminished capacity, a lack of clear judgment, and deceitful/weak intent on his part and most importantly and gravely an accusation of a violation of traditional process in his dishonorable retraction (penalty for which ancestrally and historically was death, according to the oath) by his own accord or in being manipulated by a dishonorable student. If he was manipulated, it stands equally as evidence of his incapacity. In addition the character and quality of Mr. Rainero being put into question with this regard, can not provide clarity but can only serve as a way to provide for ulterior motive or the assignation of blame. It also t can not be properly resolved and it will, at best, result in a fruitless back and forth of accusations. This factor will be familiar and is only relevant at the personal level by those who have significant contact with each party or are affected indirectly by them just as well, but again, it can not resolve the inheritance conflict but only generate another parallel conflict to this one, which maybe just as or even more destructive. It is therefore essential to understand that those who would be wise, would refrain from contributing to either side of this very unnecessary debate, as it relates to this consideration for the reasons previously stated.
Regardless, in being manipulated or not, the responsibility and the implied ability to not be manipulated as a grand master should not be, belongs to Mr. DeThouars and hence the judgment.
The premise of diminished or absent capacity is resolved only by factual and weighed familiarity with the man and evaluation of his process and history, and can not be adequately debated here. Can he be and was Mr. DeThouars fooled and manipulated? Is he weak? Is he traditionally dishonorable and is the disciple in question lowly and astutely capable? These considerations lead only to further inflammation, to increasing this conflict. Either way, to consider these is futile and unproductive at best.
The second premise to consider rests on the supposition that the ritual involved in the assigning of lineage is understood as it stands traditionally or as here interpreted: A singular event procedure (like a blessing or a coronation). It is not, it is a multi-phasic process. I underwent this process and all who are familiar with ancestral traditions in KunTao are aware of this fact.
Whether or not there was lack of character or honor in the exchanges and history between Mr. Peña and Mr.DeThouars is not in my capacity to discuss since I am not an able witness (I was not there). Therefore I focus solely on the second premise. The legitimacy of lineage transference.
Lineage transference is preparatory at first, “probational” thereafter and lastly, set in stone when the teacher passes away and the certification is introduced to the generational KunTao membership (The true, ancestral and functional Inner Circles and not the imaginary or recently created ones).
There is reason hence to consider that the process was never finalized, if one considers all functional factors.
Even if it there had been such "ceremony" and the ceremony was the one and only valid functional factor, Mr. DeThouars is still alive and shaping his system. In disagreement, would Mr.Peña request for Mr.DeThouars to leave his own system and name?
The process then will continue, evaluating deeply now someone else, worthy or unworthy. One may protest in relation to a process when the process has been a finalized, and this one clearly was not, is not and will not, in the near future (pending Mr. DeThouars' passing away).
It is understandable that Mr. Peña may feel deeply disillusioned with this situation, even betrayed, considering what this has meant to him and what this has led to from his viewpoint. It is unfortunate when any system looses a once valued member because of situations such as this one. I am also not aware of the relationship Mr. Pena had with Mr. DeThouars or anyone else in the KunLun Pai family. I am therefore not qualified as a witness or a critic in support or detraction.
Furthermore, if he considers himself as having been a “one master man”, devoted and loyal, one showing integrity, and to be then unfairly rejected by his master and membership within the system would be even more understandably distressing (typically, only loyal, devoted, obedient, single master disciples, or family members inherit systems).
I do see that Mr. Peña has a reason to protest if he incorrectly yet reasonable assumed final and formal inheritance. He had solid, yet partial, evidence but is most likely not aware of determining and relevant factors regarding the process.
Harder still is that one is never aware when one is being tested in this manner (that is why it functions). Being tested in this way never feels fair, but it is essential to proper succession, as the founding Master must be absolutely comfortable with his choice and must assess the solidity his own judgment. Being dead would certainly disallow and disable one's ability to re-a****, if one's judgment proved incorrect.
Would one act freely knowing one is being scrutinized? All honorable men would, but, system founders don't take that risk.
Does this mean that Mr. Peña was dishonorable or undeserving? Absolutely not. He was unqualified for whatever reasons Mr. DeThouars saw fit.
One must then wonder: What is then required for a Founding Master to change his mind? Well, simple lack of comfort is enough. Is that fair? Not only fair, but factually and intrinsically necessary.
Systems are not guided by Gods, but by men. Honorable or dishonorable, brilliant or obtuse, talented or plainly unable, but just the same; men. A disciple which satisfies a leader’s requirements as an inheritor, inherits the system, whatever those requirements may be. One more able, in considering a different criteria, will never be.
The fact that Mr. Peña did not keep the appointment in no way means that he is not an honorable practitioner, or one not worthy of such privilege. He may or may not be. I, in not knowing him can’t attest to or proclaim either. But this, after all, is a privilege, and not an achievement.
Therefore being worthy is only but one of the elements considered in the process (Being worthy according to who?). Others, such as the personal preference of the founder or leader, just or unjust, wise or unwise, are just as essential or maybe even more so in many cases.
A founder of a system can do whatever he pleases with his system. That is their authority. That must be firmly understood and accepted. Their choices shape their systems either dooming them or ensuring forward survivability. These choices, when expressed generationally, cohesively become the practical statement that defines the Founding Master's heritage.
The inheritor on the other hand, is bound by a different code: He must preserve and not alter. Enhance yet maintain. Empower but remain true. Lead, in moving the system forward yet forever remain obedient to his Master's vision, even after the founder's death. He must be able to correctly interpret silence and absence. A founding master risks everything then, in making his choices, especially in ancestral systems.
My own experience may shed light with regards to this and hence I will submit it for consideration.
Some may be unhappy with my being the lineage holder of Imua ShanTung KunTao (actually, some surely are). I accept that, but it does not affect me in the least. Practically, how could it? None of those who object matter. Neither can they erase what I have learned, what I have done, what has been done to me or take away what I represent. They may have preferential reasons to object, but not legitimate or practical ones.
They can question my integrity, and in that, the wisdom of my teachers and their judgment, who knew me in this system better than anyone else. I am not only the inheritor or the tradition of Imua ShanTung Kuntao, but an adopted son to the VanDerGroen family. A dishonest man himself is not likely to be a trusted accuser or an able whiteness, against presumed dishonesty, where an honest man recognizes wisdom, and surrenders quickly to its will, executing his master’s design. I would rather choose the second, and accept that most of us are tempted to be the first, especially in situations of power.
For anyone else to take over from me as lineage holder, should I then teach them what I have learned, show them what has been shown to me, give them what has been given to me, for as to enable them to be lineage holders? No, for now, and until I decide, this knowledge, this process, this certification, stays with me.
No power in the universe can change that fact. Yet, it does not take much intelligence or quality to deny any fact, as clear, meaningful or powerful as it may be. For some, the earth is still flat. Arrogance and pride can blind us all.
The inheritance and lineage process is not a magical process either. No amulet, ethereal connection or blessing can grant you such capacity. It is a practical process (as in what happens and not as in what one may fantasize and conjure, or mystically retrieve from the universe). It is a process of transformation, of learning and of adherence. Hence, the only ones whose judgment matters with regards to my appointment in the Imua ShanTung Kuntao ancestral tradition are Tai SiGung (Young SiJo) Otto, Tai SiGung (Elder SiJo) Mr. Lie Gai, the VanDerGroen family and the KunTao true ancestral and generational circles whom, in respecting them, respect their judgment and therefore their choices.
I have been through all and every aspect of the process, and am dully certified. In other words, it is irreversible...this game, the Imua ShanTung KunTao inheritance "game"-contest, is over. I have the choice to change this system’s design, as is my privilege, but I won’t. I will not willfully change one step in one form, one inch in one block, or the expected tightness in the grip of any of many fists. I have the authority still to do what I think is right, even when disapproved by others.
My command was faithfulness, not creativeness. In bound by my oath, I can only do what I must, which ultimately, it is to submit and obey to my Master Founder's design: To preserve THIS, his system, under my leadership as a pure and unadulterated VanDerGroen Family Tradition, at all costs, regardless of what everybody else does within their own organizations or practice. My oath is to submit and obey my masters and not anyone else’s or anyone’s design for me.
That is my background and how it intertwines with all other kuntao families, ancestral or new traditions, worthy or unworthy, great or minor.
Some may not be happy as well with Mr. DeThouars’ choices, or respect his judgments, others will question his integrity and that or his disciples. Regardless, one must always keep in mind and that, before and after all, this is HIS system and more so, it has never been, nor will it be, a democracy within his system. If he decides to empower council when he formalizes lineage, so be it, if not, then the system will be lead by an unquestioned system head, as he is, and that after all is his choice to make.
Those who disagree can not force him to leave his own system, or to be someone else. Those who disagree with his judgment are inescapably obliged to simply resign, in not adhering, in not respecting or simply not obeying the Master’s wish. This is easy to grasp in allowing for the following: When you cease to obey your Master, he is no longer your master. When you disagree with his judgment, and lead yourself or follow someone else’s orders, he is no longer your leader. When you change forms, or techniques, concepts, emphasis or traditions, then you no longer express those forms or techniques as dictated by the practice of the system, therefore, you practice something else.
Can anyone question this? Dust and stone are not the same, seed and tree in sharing commonality are also distinct, and hence they receive a different name. In practicing a system differently, should one add to the confusion by keeping the same name? Should all fruits be called “apple” and all animals “horse”?
Martial Arts do not belong to one man, yes, that is true, even for the general and unspecified practice of KunTao (Kung Fu, Chuan Fa, Karate etc), but, KunLun Pai KunTao, KunTao Silat DeThouars it does, for now. That as designed by it’s founder, legitimately following the wishes and command of one man: Willem DeThouars. From his efforts come his insight and his abilities, and he is the one to share them, and regulate them as he pleases, within his system.
It is true that no one can take away from us what we have learned. But it is also true that we can learn the right lesson the wrong way, a different way, the “better” way, or the way it was intended. Who is to say what that right way is, in absolute terms as it relates to the meaningfulness of the universe? No one. But, in relative terms, as it relates to the identity of KunLunPai or KunTao Silat DeThouars, only the founder of that system can.
In my particular case, and as it relates to Imua ShanTung KunTao the same was true for Mr. Lie Gai. This is unquestionably accepted and acknowledged by any who recognize ancestral traditions. In this case, again, and with the same emphasis and nature, this one and only person is who can identify, shape and discern without question what KunLun Pai is or what KunTao Silat DeThouars is, is Mr. Willem DeThouars and no one else.
End of story.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/the-truth-about-jose-luz-pena>
Please to remind you for helping to support Mr Omar Hakim with your donations.
Any amount is helpful to keep SILAT TV going and political free.
We as a combined family of very diversed in quality in the practice of kun tao and silat,
hereby thank Mr Hakim and his associates for his and their contribution, for bringing us here
together - as a family, not only for the martial arts from Indonesia and the Filippines but also
of South East Asia. It takes money to organize the silat web, as it grow larger in members,
and also not overlooking a very important part, is the free advertising we all are able to enjoy.
Again in behalf of my younger brother and myself, Mr Omar Hakim we both thank you for your efforts of making the silat TV web, a home for kun tao and silat.
Thanking you also for your patience and long endured struggle for keeping us together in brotherhood.
Always with my respect in grace, bapak Willem de Thouars.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntaosilatdethouars/forum/topics/to-all-members-of-kun-tao>
Quite unfortunate in no matter of any of my efforts, concerning easing off the conflict, between
myself against a few members here on silat tv, came out to be fruitless and unproductive.
Despite my attempt and also in me reaching out, was under numberous occasion with ending up in
dissarray. After my good intent to bring about peace upon the surface, here on silat tv, and had already communicated briefly with mr Semar and even mr Walter van den Broeke; I thought that
my conflict with some of the members here on silat TV had come to an end.
There was no problem between the three of us, and actually I enjoyed exchanging some frame of mind with the two gentlemen from Holland.
Dr Louie G Yu started suddenly to rock the boat again by insunating deviously, that Victor, my younger brother and I, lack a great deal of Adat and Hormat and that both our websides are
some controlling factors. I am so sorry for that kind of thinking of the docter, who previously also was thrown off my webside. Our websides the kun taw - serak - de thouars, and the kun tao silat de thouars are websides we can write, comment and speak wholelisticly our piece of minds.
Victor's and my issue is absolutely with our two older brothers alone, and should stay between us alone, and no matter if everyone else get to read our thought process or not.
We spoke out our truth and others can and should also be able of speaking out their truth.
It does not make any difference for what ever it is worth an intent or attempt.
While it concern only us brothers, some of the students of the Bukti Negara were attacking and
threatening me, with insults and challenges in wanting to fight me. For sure, I am also not appropriately being respected, as an older teacher and a martial arts leader of kun tao silat, had to respond and react accordingly.
My biggest issue had always been with Paul de Thouars and Maurice de Thouars, and only speaking for myself - I never had any dealings with Dolf de Vries. I will stand behind my younger brother under any circumstance and under any condition. My deep feelings of rejecting Paul
and Maurice, will not be unchanged, and I shall always intentful rebuke and deny them as my brothers. That will stay unchanged.
Tony Mc Bath, whoever he is, keep on forgetting that I was since the beginning when Silat TV,
first came into excistence already being a full flash member of the side. One of my teachers,
Dr Coenrad Bui, had also immidiately created our kun tao silat web. All one need to see is read off
the names of instructors of my extended families, to even come close to an imagination of the
folks who had ever trained with me. Is a long list of people anywhere and everywhere.
Even black Belt Magazine, had two years ago considered me as a silat legend, a ttile I still had
refused to accept.
Pasted from <http://www.silat.tv/group/kuntauserakdethouars/forum/topics/my-main-prospective-in?xg_source=activity>